Where is the fine line between communism and democracy?
At first when Farmer Jones still owns Manor Farm he treats the animals like slaves. After this, when the animals drive Farmer Jones out, the animals are self governing and get off to a good start. After a while, when Snowball proposes the windmill, the second rebellion starts. The windmill debate ends when Napoleon drives out snowball with the dogs. This is the turning point in the story because Napoleon takes over the farm and makes himself the leader, or more appropriately, dictator. (Posted by Period 4)
Who do you think would be a better leader Napoleon, Snowball, or Squealer. Explain your reasoning. (Posted by Period 6)
In 1917, the first battle of the Bolshevik Revolution had taken
place but it was not the first battle of Russia’s rebellion. In 1905 one battle was so bloody it was called Bloody Sunday. In Animal Farm, the battle of the cowshed happened about a month after they took control. Looking at the following source, decide if these battles are similar or not. (Period 3)
http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/russianrevolution.htm
November 2, 2009 at 3:39 pm
I think that Snowball would be a better leader because he puts the other animals in front of himself.
November 2, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Snowball over all seems like he would be a better leader. He tries to do the right things and ties to make things better for the other animals. On the other hand Napoleon can get things done faster and easier. Napoleon does not care so much about the other animals so he can do things with less consequences. squealer is not very fit to be leader. He does everything Napoleon tells him to do and is not used to making decisions on his own.
November 2, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Snowball would be the best leader when compared with Napoleon and Squealer. Snowball constantly tries to help the community of Animal Farm and to establish equality. For example, he was the one to first come up with an idea of a windmill, he led the Battle of Cowshed, and he wrote the Seven Commandments. Unfortunately, Napoleon ends up with the main control of Animal Farm. He always greedily takes more and more and more power while he takes rights from the other animals, which gives him a bad reputation of poor leadership. Squealer would be another poor leader because he is knows nothing about power. He doesn’t know how to handle anything having to do with government, so he only advertises what Napoleon does well. He only tells what the others say, not what he decides. Therefore, Snowball would be the best leader.
November 2, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Napoleon would be the best leader. He is ruthless and cruel, but also tactical. In a small community like the farm, there is no room for people who oppose the community and Napoleon makes sure to drive them out. Although he is vicious,he would be the best leader.
November 2, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Well think about this. It depends on what you mean by better. Snowball definitely does things more for his fellow animals. But that serves as a downfall for him. Snowball can get things done a lot faster and a lot easier. Napoleon does not have to worry about other so much.
November 2, 2009 at 3:47 pm
If i had to decide if Napoleon, snowball, or squealer who was the best i would have to choose Snowball because he is smart, and he was the one who thought of the wind mill and he wasn’t quite as power hungry as the other pigs. Napoleaon would be bad because he is very cruel, and squealer would be bad because he is a wimp and sucks up to anyone he can. Even though I wold pick Snowball over the others it does not mean h is a good leader its just the best of all three.
November 2, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Jack, I’m sorry, but I disagree with you. Napoleon is ruthless, but that is not what leadership is always about. Civilians never like ruthlessness in leaders, so they may start riots. For example, this is what happened to Mr. Jones. If Napoleon acts as badly as Mr. Jones, then the animals might riot and banish him.
November 2, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Yeah Jack, Stalin got every thing done. He destroyed the 3rd Reich and he eliminated Hitler and the Nazi Party. But he lost so many more soldiers and civilians. Millions!
November 2, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Stalin did get a lot done, but he also got a lot of negative work done as well. He killed lots of his own men as well as Nazis, which merely worsens the community he controls.
November 2, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Things come with a price. People die and things go wrong. Some leaders try and make that price smaller, but they will most likely get less done. Those like Stalin who do not care so much about what happens to their people. Stain did what everyone believed was impossible because of his ruthless ways.
November 2, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Stalin did get a lot done! He pretty much saved us from world domination. Even though most of Russia was starving to death, he gave them more food than the czars of Russia.
November 2, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Snowball would be a better leader because he cares about the other animals more than the other pigs, but Napoleon gets things done correctly faster. Squealer does what ever he is told making him a better follower rather than a leader.
November 2, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Stalin was not as bad as Hitler, but to get rid of Hitler he risked the lives of too many people; Most of which who ended up dead. In reality he didn’t care about all the civilians that were killed in the process of the defeat of Hitler. He was like a mini tyrant.
November 2, 2009 at 5:10 pm
I agree Shawn,
I thin Hitler was worse than stalin because he killed mass numbers of jews.
November 2, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Well Hunter although I agree that stalin was not neerly as bad as Hitler you did not go in to very much detail of what stalin did that was bad so fix it buster.
November 2, 2009 at 5:21 pm
The leader that I think would be the best would be Snowball. The reason why is because Snowball is not mean, he is not selfish, and he does not copy anyone unlike napoleon. He is more fun, more intelligent, and more active as well.
November 2, 2009 at 5:37 pm
I think that Snowball would be a better leader because he is more kind and he is not quite as power hungry as Napoleon. Napoleon is only looking for followers and Snowball may only be looking out for himself but it will still help the welfare of the whole farm.
November 2, 2009 at 5:38 pm
I think that Hitler was worse then Stalin as well. Stalin may have killed more, but Hitler was overall more evil and bent on control of the world.
November 2, 2009 at 5:38 pm
I think Squealer would be the best leader out of Snowball, Napolean, and Squealer. The main role that Squaler plays in the book is the animal that announces everything. This makes Squealer more responsible in a way. Squealer is liked by most of the farm and does not have many conflicts with other animals, and is strongly trusted by most of the animals. Napolean and Snowball often fight, and that can effect the way Animal Farm is run.
November 2, 2009 at 5:42 pm
I agree with Will, Matthew, and everyone else who thinks that Snowball would be a better leader, (although it depends on what you mean by better). But overall he took everyone’s ideas into consideration, and he did not only focus on his wants and needs. Also Napoleon in away turns his back on the animals, and he turns into a bit of a traitor.
November 2, 2009 at 5:46 pm
I think Stalin was worse than Hitler. Stalin Drove away plenty of jews, killed over 20 million people, Preformed mass executions, Forced the farmers to supply the entire country with food which caused large amounts of people to starve, and he sent away millions of people to work in siberia. But he did prrety much stop Hitler. Without Stalin, Hitler would have sent his entire army on the western front.
November 2, 2009 at 5:47 pm
I also agree that Hitler was worse than Stalin. Hitler was persecuting people because of their religion and he started a horrible phenomenon (the Holocaust). While Stalin also was part of the Bolshevik Revolution, he was not really as, I like how Chris used the word. . .Evil.
November 2, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Snowball would be a better leader socialy, but Napolean Does not plat fair and will always find his ways to come out on top.
November 2, 2009 at 5:50 pm
WOW! Reading Will’s comment on Stalin, he seems like a much worse person. Though it is defiantly true that without Stalin, who knows how the world would be now? If Hitler had continued his dictatorship he most likely would have killed a ton more people, and eventually continued on until he had tried to take over the Whole World!
November 2, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Napoleon was a very self centered leader. He was the kind of leader who would be a pretty good leader if you were on his side all of the time, but the moment someone disagreed, they would be killed. Anyone who does not see his point of view on all things, would not go far under Napoleon’s leadership.
November 2, 2009 at 5:52 pm
I remeber While reasearching about stalin it listed deaths for certain groups. Stalin killed Something around 2 thousand jews i think, and thosuands of gypsies and other ethnic groups. He did not like Jews himself so don’t say Hitler was the only one.
November 2, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Yeah im not saying hitler was good. I kind of want to punch him in the face. but heres the diference between hitler and Stalin. The people of germany liked hitler, and the people of russia hated Stalin
November 2, 2009 at 5:58 pm
On communism and democracy, in democracy there are social classes, but everyone in all social classes get a say in who gets to lead them. I think that democracy is a better form of government because if, for example, in a business some people worked harder than others than they should be the leaders. If everyone were equal in a business than it would not be able to run very smoothly. Plus in the end many who did work harder would rebel and everything would turn into a big mess.
November 2, 2009 at 6:00 pm
I completely agree with Matt on the question “Who do you think would be a better leader, Napoleon, Snowball, or Squealer?” Snowball would surely make a better and more professional leader. He is always organizing and keeping the community in a working order. He puts everybody and their thoughts into his own perspective. He kept everybody well fed and comfortable. He brought up the idea of having a windmill to generate electricity. He was one of the founding fathers of Animal Farm and Animalism. He wrote the Seven Commandments and started all the rules. During his time of leadership, he had more of a democracy run government; after he brought up a proposal, all the animals could vote upon it, yes or no. However when Napoleon was ruling, he had more of a communist/dictatorship run government; the government (Napoleon) would decide and demand how thing are to be run without the public opinion. A mental picture of what was going on, in my mind, was a gray and gloomy farm with no food and warm proper shelter for the animals to live in. Squealer, on the same hand, would make a bad leader because he is Napoleon’s little doll that announces everything for him; he does not fully understand the meaning of power. He is just the pig that brainwashes and propagandizes all the other animals. Therefore, Napoleon and Squealer would make bad leaders, but Snowball is clearly the best choice for a leader.
November 2, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Alex, I think you summed it up pretty well.
November 2, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Socialism could work, but know one is willing to try. People are to corupt and evil. Socalism turns into communism and then dictators often rise to power. I hate people
November 2, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Here’s an interesting video my group found for the wiki. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0F-eOD_4qY
November 2, 2009 at 6:10 pm
I agree with You Alex Snowball was trying to make life easy for all the animals as much as possible. I also really liked the windmill it is a great way to keep them from being connected to other farms if they share the same things it make them dependent on the others. If they all their energy was made buy them they are completely dependent.
November 2, 2009 at 6:16 pm
I totally agree with Will. Pure socialism is not what people think. It is a very powerful and effective way of running things. But it never stays pure.
November 2, 2009 at 6:35 pm
I agree that with most of you guys that Snowball would be a better leader. He is not only inspirational to the animals but he works and fights hard himself. However he might not have the edge Napoleon does to get things done. I also want to point out that it was Napoleon who came up with the idea for the windmill in the first place. He only used the disagreement to get rid of Snowball. Squealer on the other hand is totally out of the question. He isn’t sure of himself and doesn’t think for himself very well.
November 2, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Will, of course no one is willing to try socialism. Socialism goes against basic human nature; people will naturally look out for themselves, so they are not evil and corrupt, if that’s what you mean by evil and corrupt. Socialism is run completely by the government. Now some of you might be thinking “that’s good! The government will take care of everything and pay for everything.” Well it’s not good! If you had a very expensive medicine the government will most likely not pay for it, and you won’t get your medicine. If you have a kidney disease and need a transplant; you’re not going to get it! The government also would give jobs, but thoughs jobs are government jobs. Do you know how they get paid? Well the answer to my question is the jobs are paid by small business owning tax payers. If the tax payers can’t pay the bill because it is too outrageous, what will happen is that they will either have to close doors or let people go, causing even more unemployment.
November 2, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Alex, I think that socialism is good. Socialism is just where the government controls all of the economy, which is good. This is good because everyone can equally cheap healthcare, good jobs, and, of course, really cheap plumbing. The government taxes more, but that doesn’t matter as much because the citizens get more benefits. Communism is different. That is where the government over-abuses its power. That is what you are talking about Alex, for communism is the dark side of socialism. Socialism actually causes more employment because the government makes more jobs.
November 2, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Will, this comes from your comment from way before:
The people of Germany really did like Hitler. However, this is not because he was good. Hitler just banned all possibilities of propaganda and lied to the Germans to give a good impression of himself. Stalin, on the other hand, did not try to cover up his cruel actions, so the Russians hated him.
November 2, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Agreeing with Matt, socialism is good or at least can be. What do you think would happen is the animals did not have someone in control? Everyone (sooner or later) goes crazy! But then again, characters like Snowball or Napoleon sometimes over used their power.
November 2, 2009 at 7:03 pm
So reading what everyone has said, I agree with almost everybody.
Snowball would be a good leader because of how he cares about the farm and wants what’s best for it. He seems to have a stronger work ethic than the other pigs too. He works really hard on the windmill plans, and the other pigs decide to sleep in.
Squealer would be a good leader because of the way he can play the other animals. Others are saying he is just Napolean’s minion. I think that is true now, but if Squealer was given power he could make a good leader. He’s quick-witted and he knows how to control a crowd.
Napolean’s strenghts are sort of the opposite of Snowball’s. He doesn’t really think about the welfare of the animals as much as he cares about himself which can sometimes be a good thing. Sometimes leaders need to make tough decisions and Napolean has no problem sacrificing animals and things if the need calls. His downfalls are that he is too selfish and doesn’t think enough about the animals well being.
So I guess my answer is that they’d all make good leaders for completely different reasons.
November 2, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Overall I think Snowball would be the best leader, but when Snowball, Napolean, and Squealer all worked together everything seemed to work well. Everything would have been perfect if Napolean and Snowball had not argued as much.
November 2, 2009 at 7:09 pm
In my opinion Snowball would be the best leader because he thinks about the other animals before himself and thinks about others reactions. And Matt I agree with you because Stalin did get a lot done but also got A lot of Negatove done as well
November 2, 2009 at 7:12 pm
I see a few too many posts with misspellings or capitalization errors–please remember to use proper formal writing when posting to the blog.
November 2, 2009 at 7:24 pm
I think that although Napoleon seems to get things done efficiently at first after a while he becomes a cold hearted ruthless killer he is more like a dictator now than a leader the animals need to be good and accurate in running the farm. I don’t think Squealer would be a very good leader because he just agrees whit what everyone is saying and doing and he is also Napoleons right hand man so if he became the leader he might just become like him. I think snowball was the best leader and also the one that could rally the animals when they needed to be so I think that snowball should be the leader even though he ran away.
November 2, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Matt the people of Geramny loved Hitler. He did what they wanted and he served as a great leader for germany
November 2, 2009 at 7:35 pm
sory i spelled Germany wrong
November 2, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Referring to Period 3’s question:
Bloody Sunday is comparative to the Battle of Cowshed. First of all, the Battle of Cowshed happened after the Animal Revolution, whereas Bloody Sunday came before the Bolshevik Rebellion. Also, nobody invaded on Bloody Sunday; there were just riots against Czar Nicholas II. I think that the Battle of Cowshed represents the ending battles of World War I. The last bits of World War I came after the Bolshevik Rebellion, and foreigners fought against Russia.
November 2, 2009 at 7:37 pm
I think that Snowball would be a great leader. The thing is people don’t play fair. Which is why dictators like Napoleon come out on top.
November 2, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Not every thing in the book goes in order of reall events.
November 2, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Will, have you read “the Boy Who Dared?” (I would underline that, but I can’t). Hitler destroyed all foreign (and particularly British) propaganda and lied to his people. The German citizens were only loyal because they were told that they were fighting for the good side.
November 2, 2009 at 7:42 pm
One thing id like to say is that Hitler and the 3rd Reich was defeated because Stalin was not afraid to lose men. He sent Millions of men to thier deaths uneqiped and unprepared. Russia’s Strategy was to carge straight through enemy fire.
November 2, 2009 at 7:43 pm
Will, not everything in the book is in the same order of the historical events, but Bloody Sunday and the Battle of Cowshed are different. Czar Nicholas II was the king of Russia at the time of Bloody Sunday, and he represents Mr. Jones. In Bloody Sunday, Czar Nicholas defends his seat as king instead of fighting to get it back.
November 2, 2009 at 7:43 pm
Matt I have read it. That is just through the eyes of one boy. Germany loved Hitler. When he went to war the Germans were fine with it. You saw how the kids in the school wanted to be just like Hitler.
November 2, 2009 at 7:44 pm
Matt i was just saying that. I was not taking about that. I agree.
November 2, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Ok THat comment didn’t make much sense. I agree with you Matt.
November 2, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Do any of you think that the Battle of Cowshed represented World War II instead of World War I? I’m not sure.
November 2, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Well it’s hard to say. The farmers do represent the Czars, but after the revolution they were dead. So yeah it could be.
November 2, 2009 at 7:48 pm
I’m not sure exactly what the Battle of Cowshed represented, but I think it was more like the end of World War I.
November 2, 2009 at 7:50 pm
Id say it shows the power of the Solviet Union, Animal Farm in this case. The soviet Union was unstopable
November 2, 2009 at 7:51 pm
I think that Stalin was a good leader and got what he wanted because he wasn’t afraid to take chances, but I also believe that he could have cared a bit more for the well-fare of his followers.
November 2, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Well, Trotsky was exiled in 1929 (I’m not really sure about this date; different sources said different things), several years before World War II and after World War II. However, in the book, Snowball (Trotsky’s metaphorical character) was exiled after the Battle of Cowshed, and nothing like World War II has happened yet. This must mean that the Battle of Cowshed was World War I.
November 2, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Sorry that my explanation is kind of confusing. It’s kind of hard to explain.
November 2, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Here’s Lenin’s big speech. The one Old Major’s is based on.
November 2, 2009 at 7:57 pm
November 2, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Do any of you think the windmill was symbolic of anything like a bold new idea made by the Soviets?
November 2, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Oh so wait maybe because there is some debate about which war the battle was based on, then the battle was really a mixture between both? Just like some of the characters in the book represent more than one real life person.
November 2, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Maybe the windmill symbolized the building of nuclear weapons or power plants?
November 2, 2009 at 7:59 pm
I think the Windmill shows how hard the people of Russia are willing to work.
November 2, 2009 at 8:00 pm
That’s what I was thinking, but I was just wondering if there was any more.
November 2, 2009 at 8:00 pm
No Matt the attomic bomb was made in America many years later. It was used on Japan twice after Germany was defeated.
November 2, 2009 at 8:01 pm
I think it symbolizes the progretion of tecnology in Russia. It shows how the people are willing to work.
November 2, 2009 at 8:02 pm
You’re right, Will. If the Battle of Cowshed represented World War I. The building of Nuclear weapons did not come until World War II, which is not represented yet.
November 2, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Oops – nuclear shouldn’t be capitalized.
November 2, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Yeah Russia didn’t obtain Nucleur Wepons until much much later. That was a good thought though.
November 2, 2009 at 8:04 pm
dang i capitalized nucleur.
November 2, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Wow Old Major’s Speech really says the same thing that Lenin’s does, It states that the working class should take a stand against the Landowners and Bosses (Farmers) and make their own class. And he says that they don’t need people telling them what to do, they could govern themselves just as well as the government.
November 2, 2009 at 8:05 pm
But Napoleon is not scared to make the hard decisions and do what is best and not what the farm always wants.
November 2, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Over all the big guys can’t servive withought the little guys.
November 2, 2009 at 8:05 pm
I don’t think the book will go as far as World War II. If it did, I would expect some kind of agreement between Foxwood and Animal Farm where Foxwood tricks Animal Farm. Perhaps where Foxwood gives Animal Farm a nonfunctional dynamo for the windmill.
November 2, 2009 at 8:05 pm
I think the windmill symbolizes both the hard working Russians and maybe nuclear weapons too.
November 2, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Maybe, since the windmill wasn’t finished, it does represent nuclear power. If they finish it later, it will probably represent it. If it does represent nuclear power, they will finish the it after a giant war (World War II when nuclear power was invented).
November 2, 2009 at 8:06 pm
I like your comparison matt, with WW1. the 2nd WW with newclear bombs could represent the 2nd battle, with the windmill as a bomb.
November 2, 2009 at 8:06 pm
How far have you read Aaron?
November 2, 2009 at 8:06 pm
I’ve sort of finished the book.
November 2, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Yeha Drew Napoleon, like Stalin, was not afraid if he lost men. He cared about the over all picture not the little things.
November 2, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Ok I forgot, who tricks the farm with the fake bank notes? Foxwood or the other one?
November 2, 2009 at 8:07 pm
I think that the windmill was very symbolic because the soviets made huge change in this time.
November 2, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Foxwood tricks Animal Farm with the money.
November 2, 2009 at 8:08 pm
I agree with Arron Unless they go to war with another farm or something world war 2 won’t be showing much.
November 2, 2009 at 8:08 pm
So maybe that is a trick in which Foxwood tricks the farm like WW2?
November 2, 2009 at 8:09 pm
What does the people blowing up the windmill symbolize?
November 2, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Drew I agree with you that the windmill symbolized change of ideas and maybe represented new technology
November 2, 2009 at 8:09 pm
I don’t think the Soviet Union was tricked in World War II.
November 2, 2009 at 8:10 pm
i think that snowball is a better leader because he is tenacious and brilliant, presuming he made the plans for the windmill. napeleon would represent communism, which is bad, russian economy. squealer would just get so fat until he exploded and imploded from his mass wieght
November 2, 2009 at 8:10 pm
I dont know I think Germany Just declared war on Russia, rather than tricking them.
November 2, 2009 at 8:10 pm
I also think the windmill says a lot about the people and how hard and initiatively think they were at this time.
November 2, 2009 at 8:10 pm
I agree with Damon and Drew the Windmill symbolizes moving forward because the farm had never gone as far as Snowball wanted to go with the windmill.
November 2, 2009 at 8:10 pm
maybe the people blowing up the windmill represents the cold war sort of
November 2, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Maybe the blowing up of the windmill represents World War II! Napoleon gets really mad and snuffs out the farm and he decrees a bunch of laws against Snowball, so maybe that is World War II.
November 2, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Damon, the Cold War would come, but World War II hasn’t happened yet.
November 2, 2009 at 8:11 pm
I wouldn’t say cold war. I’d say it w=shows that the people will try even after failing. And if it doesn’t work they move on.
November 2, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Then maybe Foxwood represents both the U.S. and Germany.
November 2, 2009 at 8:12 pm
hey whered that w= come from.
November 2, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Matt it is possible to do things out of order.
November 2, 2009 at 8:12 pm
I agree with Drew. Especially Boxer who was willing to work much harder than anyone else.
November 2, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Did Trotsky destroy anything of Stalin’s? If so, that would represent the destruction of the windmill.
November 2, 2009 at 8:13 pm
I think you guys are jumping ahead of time. I think it takes place more bettween the revolution and world war 2
November 2, 2009 at 8:14 pm
(Sorry, I had to go to the dinner table) Let me clear some things up about our discussion over socialism, communism, and democracy. I am not saying that there should not be a leader. I’m just saying that the government should not be taking care of us on all aspects because then it becomes controlling and that gives the government too much power.
November 2, 2009 at 8:14 pm
I think that the book is most defiantly not in order. And a ton of the stuff in the book is not only in a different order, but some of it is blended together too.
November 2, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Matt I do not know but that would mean all the people are representing Trotsky.
November 2, 2009 at 8:14 pm
I think the when Russia declared war on Germany is when the war became very global and made Russia look good. Because they were standing up to Germany. And that is why some americans liked stalin a lot.
November 2, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Again–don’t get lazy. The conversation is good–but remember your formal writing techniques.
November 2, 2009 at 8:15 pm
I’d say the destruction more shows what Russia went through to get where it is.
November 2, 2009 at 8:16 pm
I think the destruction of the windmill represents a halt or a crash in the Soviet industry. The Cold War had not occured when the book was published, so it couldn’t possibly be about that.
November 2, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Damon I don’t think the book goes as far as the cold war. I think it stops at the beginning of WW2.
November 2, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Ya Will that is also possible or maybe it represents more then one event.
November 2, 2009 at 8:16 pm
I agree with Alex we can not give the Government to much power because then they control us.
November 2, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Stalin was long gone during the cold war.
November 2, 2009 at 8:18 pm
I don’t know Webb, I imagined Squealer as a skinnier, more cunning, than fat pig.
November 2, 2009 at 8:19 pm
I agree with Will, Russia fell apart but then proceeded to rebuild its self better. I think it represents the struggle and what Russia went through to get there.
November 2, 2009 at 8:19 pm
the cowshed battle and bloody sunday are alike because they both spurred a revolutionary movement and they were both over supremacy and possession.
November 2, 2009 at 8:20 pm
What’s an “oistol?”
November 2, 2009 at 8:20 pm
First of all Russia did win World War II because they defeated the Germans, Italy surrendered, and we defeated the Japanese becasue they wouldn’t surrender.
November 2, 2009 at 8:20 pm
If you guys havent you should check out lenin’s speach I posted it.
November 2, 2009 at 8:21 pm
casey, they said in the text that he was so fat that he almost couldn’t see past him. i imagined snowball to be more small and cunning yet friendly
Webb–please use proper capitalization. Remember that this is not a typical “chat” forum.
November 2, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Yeah Damon is right it does not just have to represent one event.
November 2, 2009 at 8:21 pm
I saw the speech, the author of Animal Farm did a great job of representing it in Old Major’s.
November 2, 2009 at 8:21 pm
i meant to say pistol
November 2, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Webb please explain your question. I did not folow it.
November 2, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Webb, the book never said that. It just said that he was chubby.
November 2, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Aaron actually in WW2 the Japanese Leader tried to surrender but the head general refused.
November 2, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Webb, Casey does it really matter that much.
November 2, 2009 at 8:23 pm
No just saying how someone looks can really reflect on their character.
November 2, 2009 at 8:23 pm
i remember, plus ive read the book twice now. even if he wasn’t that fat, during the end of the book he was pretty large
November 2, 2009 at 8:23 pm
Yeah and it took the destruction of hiroshima and nagasaki to stop them.
November 2, 2009 at 8:24 pm
Oh yeah that speech is good and says a lot.
November 2, 2009 at 8:24 pm
yes drew, it does!
November 2, 2009 at 8:25 pm
Thank You!
November 2, 2009 at 8:25 pm
yeah George Orwell must have done a lot of research before he wrote this.
November 2, 2009 at 8:26 pm
what? im just getting back on topic. by the way, nice speech aaron.
November 2, 2009 at 8:26 pm
Imagine you all working very hard in this reading, the blog and everything else. Then somebody comes along and does not want to work hard. Let’s take some of your good grades and give them to the guys that got D’s and F’s because they just didn’t feel like working for a higher grade. Or how about everybody would get a C, no matter how much each person worked or didn’t work. Just give the same to everybody regardless of effort. Soon we’ll be having jobs. Let’s say you mow a lawn or do pet sitting or something else. You received $20.00 for your hard work. You have to give somebody else $10.00 (or maybe $15.00 or $18) of your $20.00, but that person did not want to work for his money and stayed at home watching TV. Is that fair or equal? Don’t get me wrong. I want to help those who really can’t do a job.
November 2, 2009 at 8:26 pm
Isn’t the book showing how Socalism is good if you want to take the time to keep it pure?
November 2, 2009 at 8:26 pm
I think Orwell really used the book well as a way of propaganda even now, when the main events are now in the past.
November 2, 2009 at 8:27 pm
i bet you’re right damon. but didn’t he live part of ww2? then he would Know some of it
November 2, 2009 at 8:27 pm
Webb, it doesn’t matter.
Back on topic:
The fine line between communism and democracy is not really a fine line, but actually a quite thick one. Democracy is where everybody in a country votes upon every single governmental decision. Communism is where the government chooses every decision and gives citizens no choices.
November 2, 2009 at 8:27 pm
eah thats the thing Alex. Socalism can work but their are better solutions.
November 2, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Webb, by not mattering, I mean how Squealer looks like.
November 2, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Alex I totally agree with what you are saying! Socialiamcan have some good points, but people should get what they deserve. A gas filler at 7 eleven should not be payed as much as a CEO of a huge business.
November 2, 2009 at 8:28 pm
This book gets us all excited!!! it really funny but lets all try to be respectful to each other.
November 2, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Casey even in the 50s when he wrote the book all of the events were a while before.
November 2, 2009 at 8:28 pm
I agree Alex. Socalism isn’t a bad thing. it’s very good. Their just are better ideas.
November 2, 2009 at 8:29 pm
For the first question I don’t think there is a fine line between Communism and Democracy. If you were to lay this out on a line, Socialism and Capitalism would be at the extremes, Democracy and Communism would fall somewhere inbetween the extremes and the dead center. What do you guys think?
November 2, 2009 at 8:29 pm
wait, then why did you call it a fine line?
November 2, 2009 at 8:29 pm
Yeah webb be nice to Alex. He is very much on topic.
November 2, 2009 at 8:30 pm
Alex, I do agree with you, and Webb, he is being on topic; he’s just speaking figuratively. If the government fails at something, it shouldn’t hurt other people.
November 2, 2009 at 8:31 pm
sorry, i didn’t get it at first. i thought he was getting argumentative in stead of talking about socialism
November 2, 2009 at 8:31 pm
Alex I agree to. thats all i have to say.
November 2, 2009 at 8:32 pm
oh, i see. thanks for the point of veiw matt
November 2, 2009 at 8:32 pm
I don’t think the line is very thin. Both ideas are totally opposite things. They both try to let everyone decide their future, but in completely different ways.
November 2, 2009 at 8:33 pm
i just wish there was a way to combine the 2 into a perfect economy.
November 2, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Okay I never said there was a fine line. I don’t even think Democracy and Communism should be on the same line as Socialism and Capitalism becasue the latter are economic theories, and the former are two types of governments.
November 2, 2009 at 8:34 pm
wouldn’t that be cool if we made our own mixture of the 2 economies!
November 2, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Webb, communism and democracies are exactly opposite of each other. You cannot combine them, but you can take advantages from both. This is what the USA has done. We still have freedom, but at the same time, the government makes limitations.
November 2, 2009 at 8:35 pm
I think if we were all equal it would help a lot. If we all do jobs that we hate just to have a little more change in our pockets then there is no joy. If we all do what we love and get payed for it just as much as every one else doing what they love it all works out. I guess what I am trying to say is that what i do for a living someone else might do for a hobby. It all works its self out.
November 2, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Webb that is what we have we just lean more to capitalism.
November 2, 2009 at 8:35 pm
I think that a mixture of the two economies would work well because they both have strong and weak points.
November 2, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Damon I agree a bit, but do you think that a person who pumps gas at a 7 eleven should be payed as much as a hard working CEO of a successful company?
November 2, 2009 at 8:38 pm
We have been saying that a combination would be good. That is what socialism is. It lets everyone be equal and at the same time gives lots of freedom.
November 2, 2009 at 8:38 pm
I agree with Matt because combining two opposite economies would be like combining day and night. Eventually one would win out over the other.
November 2, 2009 at 8:38 pm
well, lets say that you earn 20$, and you the public votes on an ammount every year on which ammount of money should be equal. if its 40% to the government, then we could have a free, equal government with proctection against money problems. why trust a bank with a lock when you can trust the army with a bunch of troops guarding the money?
November 2, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Yeah, Casey, equality has its disadvantages, but to a certain extent, it is valuable.
November 2, 2009 at 8:38 pm
No Casey that dose not make sense the CEO does more work and should be paid accordingly (no ridiculous bonuses either).
November 2, 2009 at 8:40 pm
I’m just saying that those who work harder should be payed more. A person who studies harder for a test deserves a better grade, and a person who doesn’t study should not take some of the good grade from the child who did study.
November 2, 2009 at 8:40 pm
I think doing things one way limits us from doing them another way. I think the whole idea of having a set government is a bad idea because it limits us from doing it a different way. And being open to doing things two or four ways but if it works do it.
November 2, 2009 at 8:41 pm
The more and harder you work, the more pay you should get. However, Animal Farm doesn’t have money. Therefore, equality is perfect and all animals can easily get the same rights.
November 2, 2009 at 8:41 pm
OK, well then I get that it can be good in some circumstances, but bad in others.
November 2, 2009 at 8:41 pm
That’s the point of our economy. If you work hard, then you will be rewarded. If you don’t work, then you will not be rewarded.
November 2, 2009 at 8:41 pm
now we are talking about being liberal
November 2, 2009 at 8:42 pm
yeah Casey that makes logical sense but this is all in hindsight of the USSR and before that would not see this coming.
November 2, 2009 at 8:43 pm
work and pay go hand and hand. You do a lot of work you should be payed a lot. You do little work you should be payed little.
November 2, 2009 at 8:44 pm
That’s exactly right Damon. That’s the way our economy works.
November 2, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Drew, that’s right, but Animal Farm doesn’t have money, so that doesn’t matter to them. All animals can be equal this way.
November 2, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Well said Drew. I think we get the general idea of this topic. Lets try a new one. What do you think the confessions and murders represent in the book?
November 2, 2009 at 8:45 pm
I can safely say i prefer a Democracy is my favorite. and that is all folks.
November 2, 2009 at 8:45 pm
I mean the ones of the animals confessing to plotting with Snowball.
November 2, 2009 at 8:45 pm
I agree with most people. I think snowball would be the best leader because he is not selfish and actually wants what’s best for the farm. While the other pigs just get fat and take all the food and good stuff, Snowball actually tries to make an equal system. Napoleon is too selfish, and Squealer is a pushover. He just does what he’s told and covers up for Napoleon, as long as there is good in it for him.
November 2, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Okay guys, you are close to cyber bullying one another. Remember to argue ideas–not personalities. I’m going to close this discussion soon.
November 2, 2009 at 8:46 pm
The confessions represent in Russia when Stalin was building his reputation of making the hard but right choice.
November 2, 2009 at 8:46 pm
I also think that there is not a fine line between communism and democracy; they are way different. It makes more sense if you mean the fine line between communism and socialism.
November 2, 2009 at 8:47 pm
i was wondering why napoleon wanted snowball removed and why he wanted to be a dictator
November 2, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Kim that does not make sense because socialism is an economic policy and communism is a system of government.
November 2, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Napoleon wanted Snowball wanted to get rid of Snowball because Napoleon wanted all of the power. Like Matt said, Stalin either exiled or killed Trotsky because he thought he was a traitor.
November 2, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Webb, if you are working and making money, and I am not working (just playing and watching TV) but I get to vote on you giving me part of your money, I will always vote to get part of your money. The more I get of your money, the better for me. If my ability to vote depends on somebody in power, I will make sure that somebody stays in power.
November 2, 2009 at 8:49 pm
also, was old major plotting for the pigs to take over farm?
November 2, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Webb, it’s the classic reason. Napoleon wants power to use for his own ways. For example, would you want to be president? That is the reason why he wants to be the dictator.
November 2, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Did snowball actually die or did he just run away?
November 2, 2009 at 8:50 pm
Thanks for the veiw alex!
November 2, 2009 at 8:50 pm
snowball just ran away
November 2, 2009 at 8:50 pm
Okay. Thanks.
November 2, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Ok never mind on my question, I tried to find some info on it, but I couldn’t. I think that everyone understands the whole who deserves money thing, does anybody have anything else to discuss?
November 2, 2009 at 8:51 pm
was old major really plotting with the pigs? i wonder
November 2, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Webb, I’m sorry to disagree, but Snowball didn’t run away. He was exiled by Napoleon who chased him with his dogs.
November 2, 2009 at 8:51 pm
your welcome kim
November 2, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Snowball was chased off the farm by the dogs, but I’m not sure whether Trotsky, the person Snowball represents, was exiled or killed.
November 2, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Yeah but did he die?
November 2, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Snowball did not die. He just ran away. Some of the animals even confess to being in league with him.
November 2, 2009 at 8:52 pm
But Snowball didn’t die.
November 2, 2009 at 8:52 pm
he wasn’t exiled because he wasn’t forced out by napoleon himself, only his demmented guard dogs
November 2, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Matt, whether you are talking money, or food, or goods, it’s the same thing. If somebody chooses not to work (for food, goods, money or whatever), that somebody, or animal, should not get the same as the one that was working hard. Isn’t it unfair to give Boxer less even though he worked harder?
November 2, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Do any of you know for sure what the Battle of Cowshed represents?
November 2, 2009 at 8:53 pm
But the animals were just saying that to Napoleon because they were scared; Snowball was not actually plotting against the farm when he ran away.
November 2, 2009 at 8:53 pm
I agree with some of you in saying snowball was the best leader. He did not violate as many of the seven comandments as Napolean does, and Squeler is not as much of a leader. However, Napolean accomplished the leaddership task stronger than Snowball, but if I were an animal farm citizen, I would definitely prefer Snowball.
November 2, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Old Major was a pig, and I think he had no idea Napoleon would take Animalism as far as he did.
November 2, 2009 at 8:54 pm
the battle of the cowshed represents bloody sunday matt.
November 2, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Webb, I disagree. Read my comments above.
November 2, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Communism and democracy do not have a fine line between them. They are very different. In a democracy, the people have a say in a lot of the government and vote and chose their leaders. In communism, there is one leader who serves similar to a dictator. Sometimes communism can be a group of people leading as well.
November 2, 2009 at 8:56 pm
I think that Snowball would the better leader because if he was in control he would put others first not himself.
November 2, 2009 at 8:56 pm
I am confused. I thought the Battle of the Cowshed did represent bloody sunday? Or did they just add that into the book.
November 2, 2009 at 8:57 pm
i created the question and looked up the info. bloody sunday was a gory war with no kills but a lot of wounds. the cowshed had a lot of animals ripping at the farmers and only 1 got killed. so i disagree
November 2, 2009 at 8:58 pm
I am not 100 percent sure what the Battle of Cowshed represents, but I think it may have something to do with one of the World Wars. I believe that was one of the discussions of earlier.
November 2, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Did any of the animals die in the battle of the cowshed?
November 2, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Never Mind my last comment. . .I think that the Battle Represents Bloody Sunday.
November 2, 2009 at 8:58 pm
I agree, Greta. When I lived in New Hampshire, my dad would attend city hall meetings and vote on all types of matters of our city, Hanover. That is very close to pure democracy, where everyone votes on everything. Communism is where the government control everything. The line between the two types of government is not really a fine line but a thick one.
November 2, 2009 at 8:59 pm
i found bloody sunday online at a very reiliable resource, it is legit, set in stone, driven straight to the heart. period.
November 2, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Only 1 died, the Sheep.
November 2, 2009 at 9:00 pm
I thought that the battle of Cowshed represented the battle of Bloody Sunday. Am I mistaken?
November 2, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Interesting discussion guys, it was nice blogging with all of you. Now I need to go finish other homework. See you guys tomorrow.
November 2, 2009 at 9:01 pm
nope, you are not mistaken tara. matt just has a different point of view
November 2, 2009 at 9:01 pm
The Battle of Cowshed represents the end of World War I. I will copy and paste what I said before so that it is easy for you to find these points:
Bloody Sunday is comparative to the Battle of Cowshed. First of all, the Battle of Cowshed happened after the Animal Revolution, whereas Bloody Sunday came before the Bolshevik Rebellion. Also, nobody invaded on Bloody Sunday; there were just riots against Czar Nicholas II. I think that the Battle of Cowshed represents the ending battles of World War I. The last bits of World War I came after the Bolshevik Rebellion, and foreigners fought against Russia.
November 2, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Tara I think that you are right. Although one sheep died in the Battle OF Cowshed, but not Bloody Sunday, there was only one death, so they still represent each other.
All of this Russian history is killing me!!!!
November 2, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Are there any other issues to discuss? I think the Bloody Sunday issue is clear.
November 2, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Ohhhh Matt! Thanks for clearing that up! It was very confusing!
November 2, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Webb and Tara, no offense, but I think you are mistaken.
November 2, 2009 at 9:02 pm
There or no different points of views or opinions on facts.
November 2, 2009 at 9:03 pm
ok, thanks for the brush up matt!
November 2, 2009 at 9:03 pm
Yes i agree. And since I see no more issues, I am going to log off. Other homework needs to be done! Nice talking with everyone!
case
November 2, 2009 at 9:04 pm
I gotta go too. Bye!
November 2, 2009 at 9:04 pm
I’m not seeing the Bloody Sunday issue cleared up, so I am going to relate it to the novel. The Battle of Cowshed in history was an attempt by the White Czarist Regime trying to retake the country. They were unsuccesful. The same thing was true in the Battle of Cowshed. The farmers tried to retake the farm, but failed.
November 2, 2009 at 9:05 pm
could you clarify that aaron?
November 2, 2009 at 9:05 pm
Bloody Sunday took place in 1905 — The Start of the Bolshevik Revolution began in 1917.
November 2, 2009 at 9:06 pm
So the Battle of Cowshed is Bloody Sunday?
November 2, 2009 at 9:06 pm
im comparing them in the whole russian revolution sense
November 2, 2009 at 9:07 pm
The Battle of Cowshed is NOT Bloody Sunday. It was an attempt by the White Czarist Regime to retake Russia.
November 2, 2009 at 9:08 pm
no, the cow shed and the sunday are different, but the concepts are alike
November 2, 2009 at 9:08 pm
Well if the whole book represents the bolshevik revolution, and the battle of bloody sunday was before that then how in the world could it represent the battle of cowshed.
November 2, 2009 at 9:08 pm
I don’t quite know who all these people are, but that answer works for me.
November 2, 2009 at 9:09 pm
im saying this from a russian revolution sense tara
November 2, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Actually the book represents a span of time from the Bolshevik Revolution, the Rebellion, all the way to the beggining of World War II.
November 2, 2009 at 9:09 pm
I agree with Tara. If they happened in two seperate time periods, how can they be related?
November 2, 2009 at 9:11 pm
So then what does the Battle of Cowshed represent?
November 2, 2009 at 9:11 pm
o.k. webb you are right, anyway i will not be at school tommorow just in case ms. g wanted to know. But ill see you all later this week.
November 2, 2009 at 9:11 pm
The battle of Cowshed represents part of World War I.
November 2, 2009 at 9:12 pm
c ya tara
November 2, 2009 at 9:14 pm
ok it still doesn’t make sense but I’ve gotta go do other stuff. Bye.
November 2, 2009 at 9:14 pm
bye
November 2, 2009 at 9:14 pm
is aaron still there?
November 2, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Snowball would be the best leader. I think this because Snowball thinks of the people (Snowball comes up with plans to make sure Jones doesn’t take over, a shortage of food happens, etc) while Napolean has already made laws that are selfish and don’t help the other animals. (For example-when Napolean changed the laws and made it so that they could sleep in bed, and that the pigs would wake up later. Also, the ‘all animals are equal’ law is starting to change. All Squealer does is say what Napolean’s plans are.
November 2, 2009 at 9:37 pm
OK every body has been saying that Snowball was the better leader, but you have to also think about how he ran out just beacuse some dogs tried to kill him. SO, I respect the fact that Napoleon had a great enogh plan to run snowballl of so he would be too scated to come back. I think that Napoleon would be a great leader if he was not so mean and shelfish.
November 2, 2009 at 9:39 pm
I agree with you Jess that squeler totally is a little pleaser of Napoleon.
November 2, 2009 at 9:53 pm
I also agree with Jess but also with Brandi because i would also say that if Napoleon wasn’t so greedy and power hungry he would make a pretty good leader.
November 2, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Also thanks for clarifying everything it really helped.
November 2, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Okay guys–9 pm. Goodnight!